real people, real music, real entertainment
Sound Limiters...... Who knows the laws surrounding them, and what you can do to beat them!
OK, maybe this subject will unite more of us then the last debate I started!
More and more commonly, us pub / club muso's are being confronted with a new demon . . . namely the sound limiter, a little box mounted somewhere on the wall of a venue, with a hidden microphone, that often has a traffic light display before it very cruelly pops the mains on all of your expensive equipment at random times.
Mow, in theory, I can understand why these devices are being fitted; we are not in the business of p***ing off the neighbours (although if you move next door to a live music venue etc etc, another discussion me thinks), but the problem lies herein:
These sound limiting devices have the following undeniable flaws:
1: They don't work just on volume; they seem to be more frequency responsive, and random frequencies at that.
2: The manner in which they work can a. damage your equipment and b. cock up all of your sequences, loops, any other cpu controlled device which will reset itself if the plug is pulled.
3. There seems to be no industry standard for the way these devices are set; some can handle a full band at Motorhead levels, others will pop if an acoustic is plugged in.
So some while back, I decided to investigate the legalities of enforcing the use of such devices in venues, and just incase you think that was a pointless exercise, below is an exact cut and paste of their email reply to me:
"Your question has been passed to me to answer as my noise policy colleagues are a bit thin on the ground this week.
I assume you have looked at the draft 'good practice' guidance relating to the control of noise exposure in music and entertainment at www.soundadvice.info. This information has been developed by an industry-lead steering group, with support from HSE. It aims to provide good practice recommendations in relation to the coming in to force from April 2008 in the music and entertainment sector of the Control of Nose at Work Regulations 2005. These replace the 1989 regulations on noise at work in this sector. The change to the 2005 regulations took place in all other sectors in 2006.
In answer to your first question, there are no industry standard settings for these noise limiters. Limiters are a known way of limiting the level of reproduced sound in entertainment venues, etc. and as such they appear in the 'good practice' guidance. But as, in the context of the Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005, it is for the employer in any particular venue to decide on appropriate means to reduce the noise exposure of employees to as low as reasonably practicable, so it is for the employer to decide whether to use such devices, and how to set them up in practice. In the draft 'good practice' it is noted that limiters which cut the power abruptly are not recommended. I would hope that any venue operators would be happy to discuss the use of limiters with you, and take up your offer of helping to set them up.
Your second question seems to be about environmental noise/nuisance. The regulations we are talking about here relate to noise at work, i.e. the noise exposure of employed people. There are no maximum limits for venue sound levels. What the law requires is that employers ensure that employees' hearing is protected by making sure noise exposure (averaged over a working day) is as low as reasonably practicable, and that this is done by considering and implementing technical and organisational measures. There are limits set on the daily exposure of employees, which can be complied with by the use of personal hearing protection, notwithstanding the overarching duty to reduce noise exposure.
You can find general information about the regulations on noise at work on the HSE website; have a look at our free leaflet at http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg362.pdf. When finalised, the 'good practice' advice for employers the music and entertainment sector on managing noise risks will appear at the website mentioned above.
I hope you find the above helpful."
Timothy Ward
HM Principal Specialist Inspector (Noise & Vibration)
Health and Safety Executive
Redgrave Court, Merton Road
Bootle, Merseyside, L20 7HS
tel: 0151 951 3985
fax: 0151 951 4845
So, from the HSE of the Government's mouth as it were, there is no legislation in place.
So, as this seems to me to be pretty unlawful, I will let you in on a little secret which will let you "over ride" any such sound limiter device, for a cost of about £60.00. If you google "APC BE-550 UPS" you will find a small UPS (uninterrupted power supply) which is basically a battery back up for all your equipment. Once fully charged, you plug all your gear into one of its 6x 13a sockets, then plug the UPS into the mains at the gig where the limiter is. The result? You play too loud (or hit the random frequency that knocks the power out), and the UPS takes over for up to about fifteen minutes - plenty of time for the limiter to reset itself and give you the chance to knacker your equipment all over again. Try the following link for a distributor:
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-035-AP&...(BE550-UK)
And you can tell landlords you are plugged into their circuit without lying. Just protecting my gear, guv..........
Good luck, would like to hear your feedback (so to speak)!
More and more commonly, us pub / club muso's are being confronted with a new demon . . . namely the sound limiter, a little box mounted somewhere on the wall of a venue, with a hidden microphone, that often has a traffic light display before it very cruelly pops the mains on all of your expensive equipment at random times.
Mow, in theory, I can understand why these devices are being fitted; we are not in the business of p***ing off the neighbours (although if you move next door to a live music venue etc etc, another discussion me thinks), but the problem lies herein:
These sound limiting devices have the following undeniable flaws:
1: They don't work just on volume; they seem to be more frequency responsive, and random frequencies at that.
2: The manner in which they work can a. damage your equipment and b. cock up all of your sequences, loops, any other cpu controlled device which will reset itself if the plug is pulled.
3. There seems to be no industry standard for the way these devices are set; some can handle a full band at Motorhead levels, others will pop if an acoustic is plugged in.
So some while back, I decided to investigate the legalities of enforcing the use of such devices in venues, and just incase you think that was a pointless exercise, below is an exact cut and paste of their email reply to me:
"Your question has been passed to me to answer as my noise policy colleagues are a bit thin on the ground this week.
I assume you have looked at the draft 'good practice' guidance relating to the control of noise exposure in music and entertainment at www.soundadvice.info. This information has been developed by an industry-lead steering group, with support from HSE. It aims to provide good practice recommendations in relation to the coming in to force from April 2008 in the music and entertainment sector of the Control of Nose at Work Regulations 2005. These replace the 1989 regulations on noise at work in this sector. The change to the 2005 regulations took place in all other sectors in 2006.
In answer to your first question, there are no industry standard settings for these noise limiters. Limiters are a known way of limiting the level of reproduced sound in entertainment venues, etc. and as such they appear in the 'good practice' guidance. But as, in the context of the Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005, it is for the employer in any particular venue to decide on appropriate means to reduce the noise exposure of employees to as low as reasonably practicable, so it is for the employer to decide whether to use such devices, and how to set them up in practice. In the draft 'good practice' it is noted that limiters which cut the power abruptly are not recommended. I would hope that any venue operators would be happy to discuss the use of limiters with you, and take up your offer of helping to set them up.
Your second question seems to be about environmental noise/nuisance. The regulations we are talking about here relate to noise at work, i.e. the noise exposure of employed people. There are no maximum limits for venue sound levels. What the law requires is that employers ensure that employees' hearing is protected by making sure noise exposure (averaged over a working day) is as low as reasonably practicable, and that this is done by considering and implementing technical and organisational measures. There are limits set on the daily exposure of employees, which can be complied with by the use of personal hearing protection, notwithstanding the overarching duty to reduce noise exposure.
You can find general information about the regulations on noise at work on the HSE website; have a look at our free leaflet at http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg362.pdf. When finalised, the 'good practice' advice for employers the music and entertainment sector on managing noise risks will appear at the website mentioned above.
I hope you find the above helpful."
Timothy Ward
HM Principal Specialist Inspector (Noise & Vibration)
Health and Safety Executive
Redgrave Court, Merton Road
Bootle, Merseyside, L20 7HS
tel: 0151 951 3985
fax: 0151 951 4845
So, from the HSE of the Government's mouth as it were, there is no legislation in place.
So, as this seems to me to be pretty unlawful, I will let you in on a little secret which will let you "over ride" any such sound limiter device, for a cost of about £60.00. If you google "APC BE-550 UPS" you will find a small UPS (uninterrupted power supply) which is basically a battery back up for all your equipment. Once fully charged, you plug all your gear into one of its 6x 13a sockets, then plug the UPS into the mains at the gig where the limiter is. The result? You play too loud (or hit the random frequency that knocks the power out), and the UPS takes over for up to about fifteen minutes - plenty of time for the limiter to reset itself and give you the chance to knacker your equipment all over again. Try the following link for a distributor:
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-035-AP&...(BE550-UK)
And you can tell landlords you are plugged into their circuit without lying. Just protecting my gear, guv..........
Good luck, would like to hear your feedback (so to speak)!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by The Goodges on -
The problem with sound limiters is that they limit your sound man, this is meant to be a free country! Vote for change man, FREE MANDELA!
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Permalink Reply by The Jam Stars on -
Good topic Wiggy.
Yeah, this is a problem just about every live musician has to had to face at one time or another. I played a gig last year where the limiter at the venue seemed to be more sensitive to certain frequencies rather than overall volume. And we weren't that loud to begin with! We got around it by trailing a long power cable from a source that wasn't on the affected circuit.
In my experience councils only tend to react when they get complaints from residents, adjacent businesses, etc. My local pub had this problem, one or two nearby residents would ring up and moan even when the pub's CD player was going...and not loudly either...the problem was it was summer and these guys could hear the music when sitting in their gardens of an evening. The fact that their neighbour might have their TV on loud was neither here or there...it was always the pub that copped it. The landlord decided to can live music for good...which was a pity.
I'm not sure on the 'unlawful' side though...that could probably only be established by precedent (if it hasn't been done already)...in other words someone would have to legally challenge a venue owner and hopefully win the case. The defence would almost certainly be the protection of the employees and courts might be very reluctant to rule on it because of potential floodgate opening. And of course taking a venue owner on is hardly the best way to book your next gig with them...lol.
Your UPS idea seems ideal Wiggy....I'm gonna look into that one. So cheers for that!
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Permalink Reply by Wiggy's Rock Show on -
The unlawful bit referd mainly to councils / environmental health folks insisting upon pubs fitting these devices and setting the levels for them.... this is what seems to have no industry standard! I don't think many venues want them installed, just want to keep their music licences, so it would be the councils that need challenging, not the pubs! Thanks for your comments.
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Permalink Reply by Nick Andrew on -
Aye,
these things are a bugger! I have had my amp damaged by one a few years ago and ever since then I have a clause in my contracts saying that if they have a sound limiter and insist on using it, then the venue/promoter are liable for any damage to my equipment. Also if it pops more than 3 times, after the venue have witnessed me turn down, then it will be deemed faulty and I pack up with full pay.
I have encountered many of these wee audio traffic light bastards and I've not found one that reacts to actual noise (which would be fair enough). They all react with frequency, upper frequencies mostly. Next time your unfortunate enough to be tackled by one, turn the volume on your amps up and your treble controls down and it won't trigger a thing(just as an experiment, don't do the gig like that!).
The second the drummer looks at a crash cymbal it will pop!
The people who came up with these horrible devices along with the trolls who insist you use them should all be buggered then burned!
One way to get round them is (if you can do this) put 2 bits of chewed chewing gum over the receiving mic of the limiter or just samurai sword the whole box, this has the advantage of no one stopping you, but the police may arrive and spoil your solo!
It would be much more beneficial to the planet if there was a talent equivalent (no more dodgy cover songs) or a ballad guitar solo speedometer! a pentatonic blues lick capper (only 3 cliches per tune), a singer excuse limiter, a keyboard player listen to my new trumpet patch prohibitor, a drummer round buying augmentor, a guitarist new gear (it will work in a minute!) stopper, an music agent truth telling device (great paying venue, honest!), an A&R man finger out of arse getterouter or the ultimate.....
A DJ annihilator!!!!
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Permalink Reply by The Jam Stars on
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Excellent...also don't forget the "Bass Player IQ meter".....and a "it's some drunk bloke from the audience requesting Freebird" denial of service protocol.
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Permalink Reply by "JACK" on -
Love the UPS option, however everyone knows that a venue that has a limiter will not survive long. Best to avoid them! Confusion occurs when councils send their detectors to monitor noise level......wait for it!!!....outside the venue!! The idea is to check that the sound proofing is good enough to stop sound levels disturbing neighbors. This does make sense however they tend to stand in front of the band speakers for their meter readings. Anyone will hopefully agree that sticking a noise level meter in front of speakers at say the Junction or the Corn Exchange (both council run events) is likely to register an order of magnitude higher than your local pub event. Small venues do not understand the law and are bullied by what is puported to be a "legal" requirement.
Working in constant noise can impair hearing, however a few hours a week is not constant. A simple sign on the wall stating "Constant loud noise may damage your hearing!" should be all the legal protection any small venue should need.
Asking a small venue for a few £100's for new valve sets and blown drivers does not get a satisfactory response.
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Permalink Reply by owens005 on -
Sound abatement is definately the final nail in the coffin for clubland. As if the smoking ban and cheap alcohol prices at the supermarket isn't bad enough, we are now having this imposed on us.
Being a techy i am constantly plagued with these horrid devices that just cause you so much grief. I have found that the majority of these devices that i have come into contact with generally detect frequencys between 31 and 125Hz (Low bass frequencys).
Therefore by reducing your bass amps to 3 quarters you can sort of get aorund this. But why should we have to do this. The live music scene has been around for tens of years in the pubs and clubs, why is this only just becoming an issue?
I recently received an emial from a friend who works on the club and pub scene and it was a petition directly to No. 10 ( Gordon Brown).
I hope all you fellow music lovers will sign and help to stop these nuiscence devices.
Please use the link below for the petition.
Have a look at this, and if you feel strongly enough, do please sign the petition. It only takes a minute... I have signed it.
It has been brought to attention that the government wish to consider it a legal requirement in the new tax year to introduce laws insisting anyone applying or re-applying for an entertainment license must have a noise control device fitted to the venue. This will be the final NAIL for ALL entertainment in the UK as the level at which these devices CUT you off is dreadfully low and damaging.
PLEASE DO NOT INTRODUCE THIS LAW, WE LOVE LIVE MUSIC!
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/#detail
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Permalink Reply by molan on
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Has anyone actually tried the UPS trick for a full live band?
Sounds a good idea but I'm not sure if it can handle a complete band with lights etc as well?
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Permalink Reply by "JACK" on
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AVOID SOUTH FARM Shingay cum Wendy......Sound limiter set to 90db. Snare drum tripped the device from 30 feet, but worse the lead singers voice tripped it from the same distance without an amplifier. To avoid spoiling a couples wedding we did a semi acoustic set with no help from the venue. The cheap option, rather than proper sound proofing, is to put in these sound limiters and can sometimes be justified by small pubs and clubs in the middle of a housing estate. Large commercial venues in the middle of the countryside charging high fees for Weddings, functions and corporate events should not be allowed to inlude live music or even "discos" in their portfolio!
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Permalink Reply by Vanessa
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I had my wedding at this venue and after seeing this was extremely worried, but I did find a fabulous band who played there, (nice and loudly!) with no problem at all - they really rocked my wedding and were so professional playing just about every song you can think of.
The problem is that these days (as we found with lots of venues we looked at - some didn't even allow a live band) venues have to comply with noise regulations, and lots of bands get put off as soon as you mention the words 'my venue has a noise limiter' then people like me, wanting a great venue and great band get stuck in the middle and no-one wins. So glad I stuck to my guns and found a brilliant, professional, non-divaish band!
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Permalink Reply by sue griffiths on
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I run a small public house which has had the same Djs for 8yrs. 2yrs ago I got taken to court (by the neighbours )found guilty and fined for noise nuisance . Ive been told by the EHO to get a limiter installed it came today only to be told the limit of sound has to be decided by the neighbours (which are a couple in the flat ajoining the pub ) the engineer has to wait for them to agree on the level to set it at.The decibel level cant be used as there isnt a set limit. I could lose my pub over this as Ive been unable to have music . It seems you can move next door to a public house thats been there for years and call the shots on music level ?
Yours a very confused publican
Sue
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